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uh welcome back and welcome

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uh to the show we have charles lear with

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us today now charles

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contacted me oh i don't know what three

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probably three years ago and uh he said

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that

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he thought he might be interested in

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writing blogs well

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he's been writing uh blogs

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for me now going on i think a couple

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years

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my website got hacked of course back in

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february lost 1500 pages

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completely gone but i still i think i

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still have some blogs tucked away that

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i'm gonna

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um i'm going to put up there but i am uh

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excited to have uh charles on the show

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welcome charles hi

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martin thank you thank you very much

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yeah uh

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charles you've uh you you have really

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done some really

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deep digging into the ufo topic and so i

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i we've never really talked too much but

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how did you get interested in the topic

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to begin with

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it just kind of crept up on me um

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i uh back in the 90s i had a really

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awesome video story

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and they had every ufo documentary you

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could think of

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on vhs and dvd

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and then started reading more

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and then my journey really began when i

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started writing your blog

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and it's been fascinating it's

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unbelievable how much

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amazing material is out there available

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on the web

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there are archives all over the place

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where you can look at original documents

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and that's basically what i've fallen

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into i

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was really uh kind of got obsessed with

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finding original sources

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original reports fbi reports

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air force files um you know anything to

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get to the uh the primary source of the

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story

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and yeah it's like i said you can find

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just about anything out there

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and you've actually uh i was talking

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about the blog you have

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up there now just uh from this week the

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asparagus

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i kind of had heard of that story and i

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said let me check that out i love weird

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creature stories

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uh and yeah it turned out to be bogus

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but there's a story behind that uh

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basically where it came from was a um

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a male pope magazine and so that's a

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whole nother subject

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i really didn't know all that much about

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uh

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so actually quite a few ufo stories have

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come from those pulp magazines and uh

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they still live on today uh that the

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asparagus

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uh people are known as the georgia

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stalks

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uh so they're not super wide spread but

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you can kind of find them in the little

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corners of the web on lists

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and uh of strange creatures and cryptids

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and things like that

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yeah oh yeah so bizarre and you know

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sometimes i've said on this show that

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sometimes the more bizarre ones end up

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being the most believable

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because how could you possibly make that

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up but obviously

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they made this stuff up and uh yeah

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yeah but you know when you get stories

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like the uh kelly goblins and the

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flatwoods monster

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and uh real but super bizarre story is

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the uh

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zamfreda case uh which is an italian

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case

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uh a guy got a um

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a security guard uh ended up getting

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abducted about five times according to

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him

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uh but his federal security officers and

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the italian state police

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were alerted to this so they started

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following him around and

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like you know as soon as something went

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crazy

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you know he'd call in saying things like

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uh

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my car surrounded by smoke and driving

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by itself

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and then they'd shoot off look for him

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he's in the mountains of italy

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around uh terriglia uh and then they'd

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find an empty car and then find him

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you know passed out or looking like a

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frightened animal

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and next to a steep gorge

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[Music]

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and this just kept on happening

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he actually got hypnotized well the

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creatures he was describing

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were these nine foot tall creatures with

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thorns on the sides of their heads

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triangular yellow eyes

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instead of mouths he described metal

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and they claim to be the the dargos from

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the planet titania

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but there's a paper trail on this there

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are reports to the department of defense

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from the cabin yari which is the uh the

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italian state police

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and it's a crazy story it was written up

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in a book by

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uh reno di stefano um

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and it's actually got a blurb from

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philip mantle

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so this case was taken seriously as

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bizarre and strange as it was

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yeah but

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when when you when someone discovers

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a case is like bogus or a hoax

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and it just makes you wonder why

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they continue to perpetuate the story i

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mean

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i'm just going back again to the

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asparagus because i saw online

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uh you linked to uh you know a video

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where this

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guy's explaining the case like it's

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perfectly

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real and then i look at the comments

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below and they're all wow that's an

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interesting case that's really

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interesting

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and all that and that that that can be

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the problem with

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you know this field or whatever it is

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uh this interest maybe you want to call

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it um because things can be perpetuated

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that aren't even true and and and then

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it later on becomes true there's plenty

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of

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saw ufo you know that was like uh

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it was i heard that over and over again

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and and then come to find out

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it was written in a book it goes back to

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1952 and no earlier

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there's there's a lot of things and

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there's

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the uh the ufos and the byzantine

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paintings you see that over and over

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again

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and it was a style the byzantine

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paintings depict uh the sun and the moon

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uh and often with uh people riding in

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them and it looks like people riding in

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ufos and that's not what it means at all

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and yet that gets

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perpetuated over and over again i can't

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you know you know how many documentaries

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that shows up in

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yeah it's even recently by someone i was

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kind of surprised talking about and i

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can't remember where i saw it but

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yeah and yeah that was explained

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it's very explained actually very well

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by

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know paintings

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so yeah yeah now i had someone write and

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saying they wanted

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you to elaborate more on the albert

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bender case

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um which now for no one uh for someone

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out there that has not heard

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or not read um your blog or your

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listened to your audio blog

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if you could just kind of go over that

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that whole case it is it is kind of

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interesting

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bender uh he was this quirky character

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in bridgeport connecticut and

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uh he first made the papers in

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bridgeport because he uh set up as uh

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he lived in the attic of his stepfather

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his uh

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mother died um after he uh he

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lived there for about eight years and uh

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his he decorated his attic space uh

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with halloween decorations rubber snakes

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fake skulls

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i put did some macabre paintings on the

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walls

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and he'd invite friends over and play

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spooky recordings

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of you know uh ghosts and wind and

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all kinds of wacky stuff uh so

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it was interesting enough that uh

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somebody wrote an article about him in

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the uh local bridgeport newspaper

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um so he was definitely interested in

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quirky things uh one

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he was also he was a um a dental

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technician in the

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air force uh stationed at langley

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and he um tells the story in the

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newspaper article that he used to have

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to uh

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sometimes he would retrieve bodies out

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of the water

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and he's quoted as saying it gave me a

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real kick

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which is pretty twisted but anyway he

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got an interest in uh ufos

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uh so he found some other friends who

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were interested and he formed the

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international

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flying saucer bureau uh and then started

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putting out a newsletter

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called uh a zine uh called

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uh space review um

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and it took off like crazy he put a uh

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he announced it in a letter in a fate

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magazine

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and gray barker who

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investigated the flatwoods monster case

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and also wrote the book

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they knew too much about flying saucers

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which is i believe his only best-selling

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book

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and he contacted them and uh so great

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barker got involved

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uh but before you know it the

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thing went international and he had

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hundreds of

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members all over the globe so this thing

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got really big

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so parker

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a weird thing happened in his town um

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some guy had an epileptic seizure

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somebody lifted his wallet and the guy

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had no idea on him but he did have

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grey barker's international flying

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saucer bureau business card on him

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so an official goes to barker's house to

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uh

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talk to him barker got paranoid

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and he started calling uh his fellow uh

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flying saucer bureau members uh telling

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them uh

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um you uh

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expect to be uh investigated by the fbi

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uh this guy whether this guy ever showed

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it

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barker claimed the guy showed him fbi

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credentials but whether he did or not is

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up to anybody's guess um

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so he tried to call bender bender was

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out on vacation

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um so he called another

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member uh the reverend s l dahl based in

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washington dc

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uh and told him you know expect to be

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investigated

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well it turns out that dahl was seeing

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flying saucers everywhere and taking

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pictures

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was taking

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were at a restricted installation

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so three fbi agents actually did come

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and interview him

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so he wrote a letter to bender as well

287
00:11:47,190 --> 00:11:45,920
so bender came home and saw these two

288
00:11:50,389 --> 00:11:47,200
letters

289
00:11:53,670 --> 00:11:50,399
uh so there was a conjecture

290
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:53,680
this was actually uh the guy who

291
00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:55,920
came up with this idea was david houchin

292
00:11:59,750 --> 00:11:56,720
who is the

293
00:12:00,949 --> 00:11:59,760
curator of the gray barker collection at

294
00:12:03,990 --> 00:12:00,959
the

295
00:12:06,470 --> 00:12:04,000
clarksburg harrison public library

296
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:06,480
his theory is that bender came home saw

297
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:07,680
these two letters

298
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:11,760
and panicked and took the

299
00:12:18,389 --> 00:12:15,279
three men visiting

300
00:12:21,269 --> 00:12:18,399
scenario from daw and he turned them

301
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:21,279
into men in black

302
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:24,560
he told his members that he'd found the

303
00:12:28,389 --> 00:12:26,639
answer to flying saucers

304
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:28,399
but he wasn't he was sworn to secrecy

305
00:12:32,470 --> 00:12:30,079
not to tell anybody about it as an

306
00:12:35,910 --> 00:12:32,480
american citizen

307
00:12:39,030 --> 00:12:35,920
so the and he shut down the

308
00:12:41,030 --> 00:12:39,040
bureau shortly thereafter

309
00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:41,040
so that's where the mythos of the men in

310
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:42,079
black

311
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:44,399
got its start that's where it started

312
00:12:48,949 --> 00:12:46,320
right there

313
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:48,959
yeah yeah a lot of people will say that

314
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:49,600
it

315
00:12:56,150 --> 00:12:52,959
you can kind of right

316
00:12:58,230 --> 00:12:56,160
yeah but

317
00:12:59,269 --> 00:12:58,240
the you know the classic three men in

318
00:13:02,550 --> 00:12:59,279
black

319
00:13:04,310 --> 00:13:02,560
uh really came from bender's experience

320
00:13:06,470 --> 00:13:04,320
and barker really played it up in his

321
00:13:09,269 --> 00:13:06,480
book they knew too much about flying

322
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:12,629
so yeah yeah

323
00:13:16,150 --> 00:13:14,880
yeah that's that's the story of bender

324
00:13:18,310 --> 00:13:16,160
uh so

325
00:13:19,430 --> 00:13:18,320
uh the other members uh kind of

326
00:13:21,750 --> 00:13:19,440
scattered

327
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:21,760
uh barker went off on his own he was

328
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:24,320
publishing the saucerium

329
00:13:28,629 --> 00:13:27,360
which is a real whimsical wonderful uh

330
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,639
publication

331
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:30,720
uh full of fact and fiction i mean he

332
00:13:36,150 --> 00:13:32,880
has uh ufo reports there from

333
00:13:39,990 --> 00:13:36,160
some of the pulp magazines as well as

334
00:13:43,670 --> 00:13:40,000
you know uh credible reports

335
00:13:45,189 --> 00:13:43,680
um he was definitely a 14 for teams or

336
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:45,199
people who

337
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:47,519
collect unusual stories named after

338
00:13:50,790 --> 00:13:49,760
charles fort who was a guy who did that

339
00:13:54,069 --> 00:13:50,800
in the

340
00:13:57,430 --> 00:13:54,079
early uh 20th century um

341
00:14:00,069 --> 00:13:57,440
so barker was definitely a 14

342
00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:00,079
and his magazine reflected that but

343
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:01,120
other members

344
00:14:08,870 --> 00:14:05,279
auguste c roberts and dom muchesi

345
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:08,880
they teamed up with james mosley who

346
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:12,480
put out the publication nexus and

347
00:14:16,870 --> 00:14:14,720
that turned into saucer news and then

348
00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:16,880
saucer smear

349
00:14:21,030 --> 00:14:19,440
so anyway that's basically uh what

350
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:21,040
happened to the international flying

351
00:14:24,710 --> 00:14:23,440
saucer bureau they only lasted a little

352
00:14:27,990 --> 00:14:24,720
more than a year

353
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:28,000
ah wow now i know you live

354
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:30,480
what's that i'm sorry there's more about

355
00:14:36,230 --> 00:14:32,320
bender though

356
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:36,240
bender later wrote a book uh called uh

357
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:38,480
uh flying saucers and three men which

358
00:14:43,110 --> 00:14:39,920
barker published

359
00:14:44,949 --> 00:14:43,120
and so bender told the story uh all of a

360
00:14:46,870 --> 00:14:44,959
sudden these three men in black turn

361
00:14:47,509 --> 00:14:46,880
into these ethereal creatures from the

362
00:14:51,590 --> 00:14:47,519
planet

363
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:51,600
chaoic spelled k-a-z-i-k

364
00:14:58,310 --> 00:14:55,680
uh and um

365
00:14:59,990 --> 00:14:58,320
he talks about going to another planet

366
00:15:02,310 --> 00:15:00,000
traveling in a flying saucer

367
00:15:03,910 --> 00:15:02,320
getting a nude massage from maiden's

368
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:03,920
archaic and

369
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:07,519
uh he got pretty weird so

370
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:10,720
yeah that i think that's

371
00:15:17,509 --> 00:15:14,160
sums up the bender story wow

372
00:15:20,470 --> 00:15:17,519
um now what about uh

373
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:20,480
rupelt that was uh that's a very

374
00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:21,680
interesting

375
00:15:26,069 --> 00:15:23,680
uh that when you did that's a blog you

376
00:15:28,949 --> 00:15:26,079
did last week because i had

377
00:15:30,150 --> 00:15:28,959
heard uh it's kind of controversial the

378
00:15:33,910 --> 00:15:30,160
way he

379
00:15:34,870 --> 00:15:33,920
uh changed his his thoughts on the ufo

380
00:15:37,350 --> 00:15:34,880
topic

381
00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:37,360
you know and and and it's kind of

382
00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:38,480
unclear

383
00:15:46,550 --> 00:15:43,440
whether he was influenced i had

384
00:15:48,790 --> 00:15:46,560
jan aldrich on last week and

385
00:15:49,590 --> 00:15:48,800
we we talked about that topic a little

386
00:15:52,949 --> 00:15:49,600
bit

387
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:52,959
it's sort of unclear but um

388
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:55,279
have you have you actually read his book

389
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:56,480
his book is really

390
00:16:01,110 --> 00:15:59,519
a great book yeah topic yeah yeah no i

391
00:16:03,189 --> 00:16:01,120
that's i've read the book

392
00:16:05,670 --> 00:16:03,199
and i read all his status reports as

393
00:16:08,310 --> 00:16:05,680
well you can find those online

394
00:16:10,470 --> 00:16:08,320
uh he put out monthly tried to put out

395
00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:10,480
monthly status reports

396
00:16:17,030 --> 00:16:14,880
um and um so that and they're all

397
00:16:19,269 --> 00:16:17,040
they were formally classified so it's a

398
00:16:28,470 --> 00:16:19,279
real good inside look into uh

399
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:31,030
he was genuinely mystified uh but he

400
00:16:35,509 --> 00:16:33,199
kept an open mind he

401
00:16:36,629 --> 00:16:35,519
the the air force at the time there were

402
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:36,639
two factions

403
00:16:39,749 --> 00:16:39,199
uh there were those who believed uh we

404
00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:39,759
were

405
00:16:42,949 --> 00:16:42,480
being visited by uh people from outer

406
00:16:45,189 --> 00:16:42,959
space

407
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:45,199
and there were those who thought that

408
00:16:50,550 --> 00:16:47,040
you know it's all bunk

409
00:16:53,829 --> 00:16:50,560
um and depending on who was in charge

410
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:53,839
that's uh the way the uh

411
00:17:00,310 --> 00:16:56,959
the various projects would go uh sign

412
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:00,320
before and uh grudge uh and then

413
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:02,320
finally blue book so depending on who

414
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,240
was in charge

415
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:06,480
the investigation would uh go that way

416
00:17:10,549 --> 00:17:07,520
they'd be either

417
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:10,559
well staffed or not well staffed so a

418
00:17:15,029 --> 00:17:11,600
lot of people call

419
00:17:17,909 --> 00:17:15,039
rupelts uh he only was director for

420
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:17,919
about a year a little more in a year

421
00:17:21,750 --> 00:17:20,640
they call that the golden age because he

422
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:21,760
took it seriously

423
00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:25,600
he was a hard worker and so you know you

424
00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:28,079
gave him a job and he did it

425
00:17:36,150 --> 00:17:32,320
so he took it seriously and um the

426
00:17:39,430 --> 00:17:36,160
uh the the washington uh

427
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:39,440
when uh 1952 there was a uh

428
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:43,840
a flap that was uh so extreme

429
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:47,120
i think they they had from

430
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:49,600
i think there were like 1200 reports

431
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,640
over the summer

432
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:52,960
uh where they normally would have only a

433
00:17:58,549 --> 00:17:55,200
couple hundred during a whole year

434
00:18:00,230 --> 00:17:58,559
yeah and uh they were so it was so

435
00:18:01,190 --> 00:18:00,240
intense he wasn't able to put out any

436
00:18:03,830 --> 00:18:01,200
status reports

437
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:03,840
in that time oh wow funny you know you

438
00:18:09,430 --> 00:18:05,360
if you know the flaps there and you look

439
00:18:14,230 --> 00:18:12,549
like sorry folks too busy so it

440
00:18:15,830 --> 00:18:14,240
kind of hit its peak with the washington

441
00:18:19,110 --> 00:18:15,840
dc he called it the washington

442
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:22,390
blip showed up over radar um

443
00:18:28,630 --> 00:18:25,440
and they were also seen by pilots uh

444
00:18:30,070 --> 00:18:28,640
the uh would were scrambled

445
00:18:32,390 --> 00:18:30,080
they'd come in and the blips would

446
00:18:33,990 --> 00:18:32,400
disappear and then they'd leave and the

447
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:34,000
blips would come back on

448
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:36,960
so people were extremely concerned

449
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:37,679
obviously

450
00:18:42,150 --> 00:18:39,200
because it's you know restricted air

451
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:42,160
space and uh

452
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:45,200
rupell's uh involvement in that is

453
00:18:49,669 --> 00:18:47,760
uh he couldn't even get a uh he couldn't

454
00:18:52,390 --> 00:18:49,679
manage to get a car

455
00:18:53,190 --> 00:18:52,400
uh requisitioned uh they wouldn't give

456
00:18:54,630 --> 00:18:53,200
it to him

457
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:54,640
uh because he wasn't supposed to be

458
00:18:58,230 --> 00:18:56,240
there more than a day

459
00:19:02,070 --> 00:18:58,240
and he wanted to investigate so he just

460
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:02,080
said you know forget it i'm going home

461
00:19:07,830 --> 00:19:05,679
but uh that case definitely influenced

462
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:07,840
him

463
00:19:11,909 --> 00:19:10,000
i'm sure and when you read his book you

464
00:19:14,230 --> 00:19:11,919
can just kind of see where he's going

465
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:14,240
well you know there's something going on

466
00:19:18,150 --> 00:19:16,799
i can't all be weather balloons and uh

467
00:19:21,990 --> 00:19:18,160
ball lightning

468
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:22,000
uh so and then after uh he left blue

469
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:24,160
book he started writing and he

470
00:19:27,669 --> 00:19:27,200
uh he was writing to kehoe and other

471
00:19:30,630 --> 00:19:27,679
people

472
00:19:31,830 --> 00:19:30,640
and uh he was actually trying to turn a

473
00:19:34,870 --> 00:19:31,840
dollar on it

474
00:19:38,070 --> 00:19:34,880
uh you know he's in the writing biz and

475
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:38,080
his article he wrote an article i forget

476
00:19:43,990 --> 00:19:39,360
for which magazine but

477
00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:44,000
you know it did really well and is uh

478
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:47,120
you know and then he wrote his book um

479
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:48,880
which is pretty extraordinary because at

480
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,720
the time you know it was a real inside

481
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:53,039
look into a classified project which you

482
00:19:55,669 --> 00:19:53,760
know

483
00:19:58,070 --> 00:19:55,679
he got everything cleared by the air

484
00:20:02,070 --> 00:19:58,080
force before he published it

485
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:02,080
uh so then he went out into the uh

486
00:20:05,190 --> 00:20:04,559
the scene and uh he actually went to the

487
00:20:11,750 --> 00:20:05,200
giant

488
00:20:14,789 --> 00:20:11,760
run by george tassel and

489
00:20:17,830 --> 00:20:14,799
encountered all the contactees

490
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:17,840
he actually you can hear audio of him

491
00:20:23,510 --> 00:20:20,880
interviewing george damski

492
00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:23,520
uh which is hysterical because adamski

493
00:20:27,590 --> 00:20:24,240
just

494
00:20:29,669 --> 00:20:27,600
blabs on and on and on and uh he's

495
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:29,679
rupelt is really quite polite and

496
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:32,000
restrained

497
00:20:38,710 --> 00:20:35,600
and so you've got to know that

498
00:20:42,789 --> 00:20:38,720
that kind of circus uh affected him

499
00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:42,799
and kehoe was just pounding the air

500
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:43,760
force

501
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:47,919
uh and using uh you know keto was a

502
00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:49,200
ex-military

503
00:20:53,669 --> 00:20:51,200
and had a lot of uh he had some uh

504
00:20:55,830 --> 00:20:53,679
serious connections and high places

505
00:20:57,750 --> 00:20:55,840
so kehoe was able to pressure the air

506
00:20:58,950 --> 00:20:57,760
force a great deal he was convinced the

507
00:21:02,789 --> 00:20:58,960
air force

508
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:02,799
knew we were being visited by uh uh

509
00:21:05,909 --> 00:21:04,960
you know beings from outer space and

510
00:21:09,110 --> 00:21:05,919
were uh

511
00:21:10,870 --> 00:21:09,120
hiding things from us yes he put a huge

512
00:21:13,909 --> 00:21:10,880
amount of pressure on the air force and

513
00:21:14,630 --> 00:21:13,919
rupp described him as uh having driven

514
00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:14,640
the deepest

515
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,720
foreign of anybody into the side of the

516
00:21:22,710 --> 00:21:18,480
air force

517
00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:22,720
so you know my thinking is that uh

518
00:21:27,990 --> 00:21:25,760
you know as he wrote his second edition

519
00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:28,000
of the book as an update

520
00:21:33,270 --> 00:21:31,120
um you know he's seeing

521
00:21:34,870 --> 00:21:33,280
the pressure his uh his brothers are

522
00:21:36,390 --> 00:21:34,880
under and uh

523
00:21:38,149 --> 00:21:36,400
you know he just wanted to help his

524
00:21:40,390 --> 00:21:38,159
brothers out and um

525
00:21:41,909 --> 00:21:40,400
and probably he had a little disgust

526
00:21:43,909 --> 00:21:41,919
himself just

527
00:21:45,029 --> 00:21:43,919
you know having endured the circus that

528
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:45,039
this uh

529
00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:47,760
field can uh turn into sometimes so

530
00:21:51,750 --> 00:21:49,520
that's my take on it i don't think he

531
00:21:52,870 --> 00:21:51,760
was uh directly pressured i think he was

532
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:52,880
uh

533
00:21:56,549 --> 00:21:55,440
you know at the and maybe you know just

534
00:21:58,950 --> 00:21:56,559
at the time was

535
00:22:00,870 --> 00:21:58,960
feeling that way because i don't know

536
00:22:03,590 --> 00:22:00,880
about you but i i know

537
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:03,600
you know i've heard from a lot of uh

538
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:04,240
reds

539
00:22:07,350 --> 00:22:06,000
about you know a lot of other you

540
00:22:08,950 --> 00:22:07,360
followed this kind of

541
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:08,960
going back and forth sometimes you

542
00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:10,720
believe everything sometimes you believe

543
00:22:13,190 --> 00:22:12,480
some and sometimes you think it's all

544
00:22:15,990 --> 00:22:13,200
just

545
00:22:16,870 --> 00:22:16,000
you know nuts that there's nothing to it

546
00:22:18,630 --> 00:22:16,880
so you know

547
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:18,640
maybe he was in one of those moods is

548
00:22:24,230 --> 00:22:21,280
another thought of mine on that

549
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,240
yeah yeah and i think anyone that really

550
00:22:29,270 --> 00:22:26,000
looks into this topic

551
00:22:31,830 --> 00:22:29,280
um does have you know peaks and valleys

552
00:22:32,310 --> 00:22:31,840
you know where they get fed up with uh

553
00:22:34,549 --> 00:22:32,320
um

554
00:22:36,630 --> 00:22:34,559
someone at his level would probably got

555
00:22:38,549 --> 00:22:36,640
up fed up with the bureaucratic part of

556
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:38,559
the way things were going and

557
00:22:43,190 --> 00:22:42,000
um and uh some

558
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:43,200
you know i'm sure he saw the

559
00:22:47,510 --> 00:22:45,120
disinformation

560
00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:47,520
being spewed like jay allen heineck you

561
00:22:52,630 --> 00:22:48,640
know later on

562
00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:52,640
saw as well you know um and

563
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:54,720
yeah it's all really interesting we have

564
00:22:57,990 --> 00:22:56,240
a a question here

565
00:22:59,510 --> 00:22:58,000
someone wanted to know going back to

566
00:23:01,830 --> 00:22:59,520
bender um

567
00:23:03,510 --> 00:23:01,840
if if it's possible someone like him

568
00:23:05,909 --> 00:23:03,520
could have been a disinformation

569
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:05,919
agent i don't know does it all fit would

570
00:23:11,750 --> 00:23:07,520
it all fit with that

571
00:23:15,029 --> 00:23:11,760
yeah no i don't think so at all yeah

572
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:15,039
actually uh coral laurenson from apro

573
00:23:20,230 --> 00:23:17,440
the director of apro the american

574
00:23:21,990 --> 00:23:20,240
aerial phenomena research organization

575
00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:22,000
they put out the apro bulletin on a

576
00:23:27,270 --> 00:23:23,440
regular basis

577
00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:27,280
um when uh when bender uh you know made

578
00:23:30,470 --> 00:23:28,880
his announcement that he had the answer

579
00:23:33,750 --> 00:23:30,480
but he couldn't tell

580
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:35,669
people in the community were just you

581
00:23:39,750 --> 00:23:36,799
know

582
00:23:40,310 --> 00:23:39,760
mulling about it and uh laurenson did so

583
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:40,320
in her

584
00:23:43,990 --> 00:23:42,480
bulletin and uh lorenzon actually

585
00:23:46,870 --> 00:23:44,000
speculated that uh

586
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:46,880
maybe he was uh laurenson was a staunch

587
00:23:52,149 --> 00:23:48,559
anti-communist

588
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:52,159
and she speculated that maybe he was uh

589
00:23:59,430 --> 00:23:55,360
investigated as being a communist

590
00:24:02,470 --> 00:23:59,440
so yeah wow there's speculation on that

591
00:24:05,830 --> 00:24:02,480
yeah he was swift enough to

592
00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:05,840
be a disinformation agent okay

593
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:08,159
you know he went on he left ufology and

594
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:09,360
he went on to form the

595
00:24:13,669 --> 00:24:11,840
max steiner appreciation society max

596
00:24:16,950 --> 00:24:13,679
steiner was a uh

597
00:24:19,830 --> 00:24:16,960
composer of music for film uh

598
00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:19,840
that was towards the end of his days and

599
00:24:24,789 --> 00:24:20,080
i

600
00:24:26,870 --> 00:24:24,799
blog

601
00:24:27,909 --> 00:24:26,880
as i was looking for his middle name and

602
00:24:30,470 --> 00:24:27,919
you can't find it

603
00:24:31,430 --> 00:24:30,480
anywhere and the best place to look for

604
00:24:35,269 --> 00:24:31,440
a middle name

605
00:24:37,830 --> 00:24:35,279
is uh find a grave uh or obituaries

606
00:24:38,549 --> 00:24:37,840
yeah i found coral lorenzo's middle name

607
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:38,559
their name

608
00:24:42,549 --> 00:24:41,679
coral e lorenzen uh her middle name is

609
00:24:45,269 --> 00:24:42,559
elsie

610
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:45,279
because i found her gravesite and saw it

611
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:47,120
right there on the tombstone

612
00:24:51,750 --> 00:24:49,520
but benner you can't find it and i find

613
00:24:52,950 --> 00:24:51,760
it an interesting coincidence that he

614
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:52,960
talks about the

615
00:24:59,190 --> 00:24:57,120
planet chaok so maybe k-a-z-i-k

616
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:59,200
was his middle name which i speculated

617
00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:00,480
in the blog

618
00:25:05,110 --> 00:25:03,279
ah oh how about that yeah i know you do

619
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:05,120
genealogy which is interesting

620
00:25:09,830 --> 00:25:06,640
i'm going through my own family right

621
00:25:14,230 --> 00:25:09,840
now it's pretty oh i don't i do geology

622
00:25:16,549 --> 00:25:14,240
oh geology did i read that wrong

623
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:16,559
a little bit different yeah a little bit

624
00:25:20,710 --> 00:25:17,360
different

625
00:25:24,149 --> 00:25:20,720
oh wow well that's a whole nother topic

626
00:25:27,190 --> 00:25:24,159
so you were talking about kehoe earlier

627
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:27,200
and or just just recently

628
00:25:31,990 --> 00:25:30,080
he's a fascinating character in general

629
00:25:35,430 --> 00:25:32,000
because like you said he was really

630
00:25:36,070 --> 00:25:35,440
pushy um he was a no-nonsense type of

631
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:36,080
guy

632
00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:38,960
and you see that i want to say it was a

633
00:25:43,350 --> 00:25:40,000
mike wallace or

634
00:25:44,950 --> 00:25:43,360
who whoever interviewed him um

635
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,960
i i can't even remember who it was that

636
00:25:49,110 --> 00:25:46,640
interviewed him but he

637
00:25:50,390 --> 00:25:49,120
is really you know standing his ground

638
00:25:52,549 --> 00:25:50,400
even when

639
00:25:53,590 --> 00:25:52,559
he's um asked some really tough

640
00:25:55,430 --> 00:25:53,600
questions and

641
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:55,440
and he did with the air force you could

642
00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:57,039
see him um

643
00:26:02,549 --> 00:26:00,000
the uh i'm trying to remember what

644
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:02,559
archives the national archives has some

645
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:06,559
footage of uh people back in 1952

646
00:26:12,870 --> 00:26:09,840
one of them uh being kiho when he's

647
00:26:16,230 --> 00:26:12,880
like drilling the air force saying

648
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:16,240
you know trying to get information out

649
00:26:19,830 --> 00:26:18,000
of them

650
00:26:21,510 --> 00:26:19,840
he was great in his time he was

651
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,520
relentless yep

652
00:26:25,190 --> 00:26:23,760
but he was also a science fiction uh

653
00:26:28,230 --> 00:26:25,200
pulp writer as well

654
00:26:30,549 --> 00:26:28,240
back in his early days oh i had no idea

655
00:26:31,990 --> 00:26:30,559
about that you know there's a bit of

656
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:32,000
influence from that

657
00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:36,240
yeah and was that before the military

658
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:37,840
uh i think it might have been

659
00:26:43,029 --> 00:26:39,279
post-military

660
00:26:43,669 --> 00:26:43,039
yeah um yeah i'm not too positive on

661
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:43,679
that

662
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:46,960
but um yeah and uh you know he he was

663
00:26:52,789 --> 00:26:49,120
accused of uh

664
00:26:55,190 --> 00:26:52,799
uh embellishing to sell books

665
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:55,200
so you know but he was a bulldog when he

666
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:55,840
came to

667
00:27:03,110 --> 00:26:59,200
uh getting info out of the air force

668
00:27:04,950 --> 00:27:03,120
yeah you know my cup definitely has to

669
00:27:08,070 --> 00:27:04,960
be credited because they

670
00:27:09,909 --> 00:27:08,080
really did uh put together

671
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:09,919
they had some top-notch people on their

672
00:27:13,990 --> 00:27:12,080
uh board of directors i mean that

673
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:14,000
i think they had they had admiral hill

674
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:16,640
encoder on there for heaven's sakes

675
00:27:19,669 --> 00:27:18,480
so yeah the air force definitely had

676
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:19,679
[Music]

677
00:27:24,789 --> 00:27:22,799
their work cut out from yeah um of all

678
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:24,799
the research that you've done

679
00:27:30,789 --> 00:27:28,000
what is one of your uh your favorite

680
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:30,799
topics uh your favorite incidents i

681
00:27:35,590 --> 00:27:32,320
should say

682
00:27:39,430 --> 00:27:35,600
or and then you know or people

683
00:27:41,909 --> 00:27:39,440
in this uh in this topic yeah well um

684
00:27:42,470 --> 00:27:41,919
right now the uh i'm working on the book

685
00:27:45,909 --> 00:27:42,480
uh

686
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:45,919
investigators flying saucer

687
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:47,840
investigators

688
00:27:55,750 --> 00:27:51,440
so i'm really focused on the people um

689
00:27:58,789 --> 00:27:55,760
and you know uh great barker and

690
00:28:00,389 --> 00:27:58,799
james mosley are definitely two favorite

691
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:00,399
characters of mine

692
00:28:05,830 --> 00:28:03,600
um you know they're not

693
00:28:06,710 --> 00:28:05,840
in terms of being uh you know any kind

694
00:28:09,269 --> 00:28:06,720
of uh

695
00:28:10,389 --> 00:28:09,279
really diligent researchers but they're

696
00:28:15,669 --> 00:28:10,399
uh

697
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:17,269
he was actually quoted as saying i

698
00:28:22,630 --> 00:28:19,440
believe in everything and nothing

699
00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:22,640
um and his approach could be

700
00:28:26,710 --> 00:28:25,120
thought of as being more of a folklorist

701
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:26,720
than anything else

702
00:28:30,070 --> 00:28:29,440
um so you know and he would also waver

703
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:30,080
between

704
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:33,039
uh belief and not belief uh so he's an

705
00:28:39,510 --> 00:28:35,200
absolutely fascinating character

706
00:28:43,029 --> 00:28:39,520
um and he also um

707
00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:43,039
he is a fuss he really tried to

708
00:28:50,470 --> 00:28:45,919
make great literature out of uh the

709
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:53,750
which is uh basically about the events

710
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:55,039
around the uh

711
00:29:01,669 --> 00:28:58,399
silver bridge disaster in west point uh

712
00:29:05,190 --> 00:29:01,679
westford excuse me in uh

713
00:29:08,389 --> 00:29:05,200
point pleasant west virginia um

714
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:08,399
just after all the uh mothman

715
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:10,480
sightings and the uh ufos that were

716
00:29:15,430 --> 00:29:12,799
flying all over the place around there

717
00:29:16,870 --> 00:29:15,440
um so he wrote a book about all that and

718
00:29:20,149 --> 00:29:16,880
uh there's a

719
00:29:23,269 --> 00:29:20,159
you know a lot of poetry in there um

720
00:29:24,830 --> 00:29:23,279
it's uh you know it's a little sloppy

721
00:29:27,830 --> 00:29:24,840
and a little

722
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:27,840
uh you know you wouldn't call it great

723
00:29:31,269 --> 00:29:29,600
literature but you can see a man really

724
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:31,279
trying to make great literature out of

725
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:31,840
it

726
00:29:36,789 --> 00:29:35,840
got a place in my heart for him

727
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:36,799
definitely

728
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,480
and james mosley was just such a

729
00:29:43,510 --> 00:29:40,080
prankster and uh he was

730
00:29:45,510 --> 00:29:43,520
uh he was very his interest in the whole

731
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:45,520
field he was

732
00:29:48,630 --> 00:29:47,360
he was very interested in the people as

733
00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:48,640
well uh

734
00:29:54,950 --> 00:29:51,760
and it was kind of the uh you

735
00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:54,960
the gossip of ufology so his saucer

736
00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:55,600
smears

737
00:29:58,870 --> 00:29:57,360
is pretty hysterical and totally

738
00:30:01,110 --> 00:29:58,880
irreverent uh

739
00:30:02,630 --> 00:30:01,120
and you know i i feel you need people

740
00:30:04,870 --> 00:30:02,640
like that in this business because

741
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:04,880
or business in this field whatever you

742
00:30:09,350 --> 00:30:06,000
want to call it

743
00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:09,360
um because people can uh sometimes

744
00:30:13,830 --> 00:30:10,240
people just

745
00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:13,840
take themselves way too seriously and uh

746
00:30:17,110 --> 00:30:16,240
having a little fun poked at them uh can

747
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:17,120
be a good time

748
00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:20,240
good things sometimes um

749
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:22,080
he and barker actually pulled a hoax

750
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:24,080
themselves called the uh

751
00:30:27,830 --> 00:30:26,559
it's known as the lost creek saucer uh

752
00:30:31,110 --> 00:30:27,840
they basically put a

753
00:30:34,710 --> 00:30:31,120
saucer on the end of a fishing line uh

754
00:30:36,389 --> 00:30:34,720
flew it around filmed it uh and that's

755
00:30:37,110 --> 00:30:36,399
another one that's still out there today

756
00:30:39,909 --> 00:30:37,120
that

757
00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:39,919
people believe in uh and rosie actually

758
00:30:43,909 --> 00:30:41,600
took the film along in

759
00:30:45,669 --> 00:30:43,919
some of his ufo lectures and uh

760
00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:45,679
presented it israel he eventually

761
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:46,880
admitted it was a

762
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:51,279
a hoax and uh i think the uh the actual

763
00:30:57,990 --> 00:30:54,640
prop still exists in uh the uh

764
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:58,000
public library in uh clarksburg

765
00:31:01,669 --> 00:31:00,640
well with that um charles we're gonna

766
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:01,679
take a break

767
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:04,320
martin is having a little bit of some

768
00:31:06,870 --> 00:31:06,080
technical issues so we're gonna try to

769
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:06,880
get martin

770
00:31:10,710 --> 00:31:09,760
back and we'll be right back so for

771
00:31:12,950 --> 00:31:10,720
those listening

772
00:31:13,990 --> 00:31:12,960
on kgra radio and for those watching on

773
00:31:16,549 --> 00:31:14,000
youtube

774
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:16,559
we will be right back with the show and

775
00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:19,519
with our guest charles lear so

776
00:31:30,870 --> 00:31:30,310
okay and for those listening believe it

777
00:31:34,470 --> 00:31:30,880
or not

778
00:31:37,029 --> 00:31:34,480
martin had a power outage oh

779
00:31:38,389 --> 00:31:37,039
yes right when you were right in the

780
00:31:40,149 --> 00:31:38,399
middle of when he was having that when

781
00:31:43,030 --> 00:31:40,159
you were discussing that charles his

782
00:31:44,789 --> 00:31:43,040
power barker

783
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:44,799
[Laughter]

784
00:31:48,230 --> 00:31:46,960
so he's uh he just wanted to let the

785
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:48,240
listeners know that he's

786
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:51,440
re-powering up and he should be back

787
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:53,200
momentarily

788
00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:57,360
and we apologize for any inconvenience

789
00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:59,679
uh but charles it's it's fascinating

790
00:32:01,909 --> 00:32:00,720
listening

791
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:01,919
to you and you're also your

792
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:04,880
contributions to podcast ufo

793
00:32:12,070 --> 00:32:08,399
um is there any one case

794
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:12,080
uh that sticks out in your mind

795
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:14,880
that you would say is one that you would

796
00:32:18,549 --> 00:32:15,440
deem as

797
00:32:23,430 --> 00:32:18,559
credible if you can even do that

798
00:32:27,110 --> 00:32:26,070
i i keep coming back to this uh david

799
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:27,120
marlar

800
00:32:34,070 --> 00:32:31,440
might be listening he's

801
00:32:36,070 --> 00:32:34,080
he's out here in albuquerque new mexico

802
00:32:39,350 --> 00:32:36,080
i'm in new mexico right now by the way

803
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:39,360
um yeah he has an extensive archives but

804
00:32:43,269 --> 00:32:39,760
he's

805
00:32:45,029 --> 00:32:43,279
uh also an investigator um he was out

806
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:45,039
there in the field boots on the ground

807
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:46,480
back in the day

808
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:49,519
uh but he came across a case um

809
00:32:53,630 --> 00:32:52,159
that happened in hobbs new mexico uh i

810
00:32:56,870 --> 00:32:53,640
believe it's june 7

811
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:56,880
1964. uh this young kid

812
00:33:01,190 --> 00:32:58,880
charles i think he was eight at the time

813
00:33:04,470 --> 00:33:01,200
was playing in the back of his

814
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:04,480
grandmother's laundromat uh with his

815
00:33:08,470 --> 00:33:05,120
grandmother

816
00:33:12,070 --> 00:33:08,480
looking out the uh the back door

817
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:12,080
uh you know keeping a watch on him and

818
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:15,200
according to him he sees this black

819
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:18,799
top uh in the air this black top

820
00:33:25,669 --> 00:33:21,919
shaped object uh about

821
00:33:27,909 --> 00:33:25,679
five feet tall three feet wide um

822
00:33:29,590 --> 00:33:27,919
and he's watching it between two

823
00:33:32,070 --> 00:33:29,600
buildings and then he moves

824
00:33:33,509 --> 00:33:32,080
left it moves to the left he moves to

825
00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:33,519
the right it moves the right and he's

826
00:33:38,310 --> 00:33:34,000
got the

827
00:33:39,990 --> 00:33:38,320
sense that it you know knows he's there

828
00:33:43,029 --> 00:33:40,000
then all of a sudden it comes at him it

829
00:33:45,509 --> 00:33:43,039
comes at him so fast he braces himself

830
00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:45,519
uh like it's gonna go right through him

831
00:33:52,389 --> 00:33:48,240
and instead it stops right over his head

832
00:33:56,870 --> 00:33:55,830
to the horrified sight of his

833
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:56,880
grandmother

834
00:34:01,990 --> 00:33:59,679
he goes running into the laundromat with

835
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:02,000
his hair on fire they put him out

836
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:05,200
and fortunately his grandmother is

837
00:34:09,669 --> 00:34:07,919
his grandfather pulls up and they get

838
00:34:13,430 --> 00:34:09,679
him to the hospital

839
00:34:15,349 --> 00:34:13,440
uh he was burned so bad they said his

840
00:34:16,710 --> 00:34:15,359
ears were turned inside out his lips

841
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:16,720
were turned inside out

842
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,000
gosh his whole face was swollen to where

843
00:34:23,829 --> 00:34:22,560
his nose disappeared i mean he was in

844
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:23,839
bad shape

845
00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:26,879
but he said he experienced

846
00:34:34,790 --> 00:34:32,710
and even though you know his grandmother

847
00:34:38,069 --> 00:34:34,800
said he was engulfed in flame

848
00:34:39,190 --> 00:34:38,079
uh only the uh his face and the top of

849
00:34:42,230 --> 00:34:39,200
his shoulders

850
00:34:44,389 --> 00:34:42,240
showed any signs of being burned um

851
00:34:45,909 --> 00:34:44,399
he was in the hospital for an extended

852
00:34:47,349 --> 00:34:45,919
period of time

853
00:34:49,589 --> 00:34:47,359
it might have been six weeks i'm not

854
00:34:52,310 --> 00:34:49,599
positive on that um

855
00:34:54,629 --> 00:34:52,320
but there are newspaper reports uh

856
00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:54,639
following his uh progress

857
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:58,640
uh so and uh the uh

858
00:35:03,349 --> 00:35:01,440
he suffered uh some hearing loss and he

859
00:35:03,670 --> 00:35:03,359
needed glasses after that but other than

860
00:35:09,589 --> 00:35:03,680
that

861
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:09,599
david marlar was wondering if uh you

862
00:35:13,510 --> 00:35:11,760
know this is 1964. this guy

863
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:13,520
kid's probably still alive and he

864
00:35:17,910 --> 00:35:15,440
actually managed to find him

865
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:17,920
uh and interviewed him and he uh formed

866
00:35:22,630 --> 00:35:19,440
david and his wife formed a

867
00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:22,640
friendship with the uh the guy uh

868
00:35:26,790 --> 00:35:25,440
the guy you know speaks freely about it

869
00:35:28,310 --> 00:35:26,800
now because he says he's old enough to

870
00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:28,320
where he doesn't care

871
00:35:32,550 --> 00:35:30,400
uh but i don't think he's you know he's

872
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:32,560
not going on uh

873
00:35:35,910 --> 00:35:35,520
uh being filmed in any documentaries or

874
00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:35,920
uh

875
00:35:44,470 --> 00:35:40,480
he's still running a business

876
00:35:45,030 --> 00:35:44,480
um but uh yeah and uh what's funny this

877
00:35:47,829 --> 00:35:45,040
guy's

878
00:35:48,870 --> 00:35:47,839
uh until this guy told david marlar his

879
00:35:50,630 --> 00:35:48,880
story

880
00:35:52,470 --> 00:35:50,640
uh his name is charles until charles

881
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:52,480
told david marley's story

882
00:35:58,069 --> 00:35:55,920
in front of his wife uh that this guy

883
00:35:59,750 --> 00:35:58,079
charles's wife had never really heard

884
00:36:02,150 --> 00:35:59,760
this story herself

885
00:36:03,430 --> 00:36:02,160
so anyway that's yeah that's a case that

886
00:36:05,190 --> 00:36:03,440
really makes me think

887
00:36:06,470 --> 00:36:05,200
i have to tell you david whenever

888
00:36:10,069 --> 00:36:06,480
david's on the show

889
00:36:12,550 --> 00:36:10,079
he just is simply amazing on the extent

890
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:12,560
of his research his knowledge and of

891
00:36:16,390 --> 00:36:13,520
course

892
00:36:17,990 --> 00:36:16,400
his archives i mean it is so massive i

893
00:36:20,150 --> 00:36:18,000
am so jealous

894
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:20,160
i hope to one day to be able to visit

895
00:36:24,310 --> 00:36:21,440
his location

896
00:36:25,030 --> 00:36:24,320
because when you see it um in real time

897
00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:25,040
like as

898
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:26,640
for example if he's doing a show on

899
00:36:31,670 --> 00:36:29,280
video and you can see behind him

900
00:36:32,870 --> 00:36:31,680
all the stuff that he has amassed over

901
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:32,880
the years

902
00:36:36,790 --> 00:36:34,480
it's just incredible and some of the

903
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:36,800
relics the artifacts that he has in his

904
00:36:40,630 --> 00:36:37,839
possession is amazing

905
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:40,640
by the way we do have martin back now

906
00:36:43,109 --> 00:36:41,680
with us so

907
00:36:45,750 --> 00:36:43,119
charles enjoy the rest of the show with

908
00:36:48,950 --> 00:36:45,760
uh martin and i'm going to

909
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:48,960
let martin know and we'll come back in

910
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:50,320
about

911
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,440
45 seconds well great job

912
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:55,200
bill filling in thank you very much

913
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:56,560
you're welcome

914
00:37:05,510 --> 00:37:03,670
yeah you can hear me right yeah

915
00:37:06,950 --> 00:37:05,520
yeah yeah you're all good martin all

916
00:37:10,230 --> 00:37:06,960
right well ah yeah

917
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:10,240
the electricity just flashed here and

918
00:37:13,109 --> 00:37:10,880
everything

919
00:37:15,270 --> 00:37:13,119
shut down and my computer did not like

920
00:37:18,470 --> 00:37:15,280
it did not want to come back on once

921
00:37:19,190 --> 00:37:18,480
but anyway uh i'm back that was a

922
00:37:21,190 --> 00:37:19,200
strange

923
00:37:22,390 --> 00:37:21,200
happening i i think it was probably men

924
00:37:24,069 --> 00:37:22,400
in black maybe

925
00:37:25,910 --> 00:37:24,079
who knows right yeah i was going to go

926
00:37:28,310 --> 00:37:25,920
there

927
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:28,320
that classic uh art bell episode you

928
00:37:33,030 --> 00:37:30,000
know that with that one

929
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:33,040
oh yeah yeah

930
00:37:36,230 --> 00:37:35,680
that guy actually came forward uh that

931
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:36,240
that

932
00:37:39,589 --> 00:37:39,040
he was such a great actor uh boy all

933
00:37:41,510 --> 00:37:39,599
right

934
00:37:42,790 --> 00:37:41,520
i don't mean to interrupt but it's time

935
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:42,800
to come back so

936
00:37:49,430 --> 00:37:45,920
martin stand by in three two

937
00:37:50,550 --> 00:37:49,440
one go all right welcome back i had a

938
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:50,560
power

939
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:54,320
and came back on

940
00:38:00,470 --> 00:37:57,599
of course it it shut this computer down

941
00:38:01,910 --> 00:38:00,480
the desktop computer down so had to boot

942
00:38:04,790 --> 00:38:01,920
it up slowly

943
00:38:07,190 --> 00:38:04,800
but uh thank you bill for filling in um

944
00:38:10,950 --> 00:38:07,200
on my uh during my absence

945
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:10,960
and uh wow uh so i don't even know where

946
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,720
we're at but uh when i came back in you

947
00:38:17,270 --> 00:38:14,079
were talking about

948
00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:17,280
uh dave marlar and uh that is pretty

949
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:18,079
exciting you now

950
00:38:23,510 --> 00:38:21,440
live out in new mexico when we first

951
00:38:25,589 --> 00:38:23,520
started talking you lived in i think

952
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:25,599
long island or new york

953
00:38:31,750 --> 00:38:28,880
uh and now in queens yeah well yeah

954
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:31,760
technically long island yes right yeah

955
00:38:36,470 --> 00:38:33,280
and so now you're out you're not

956
00:38:37,670 --> 00:38:36,480
how far away from uh david marlar are

957
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:37,680
you

958
00:38:41,750 --> 00:38:40,400
a good hour 40 minutes oh that's not bad

959
00:38:43,670 --> 00:38:41,760
at all when it comes to new mexico

960
00:38:46,630 --> 00:38:43,680
that's right next door

961
00:38:48,550 --> 00:38:46,640
yeah it really is yeah you don't say

962
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:48,560
miles out here you say time

963
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:50,960
yeah yeah how about that new mexican

964
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:53,680
mile is like a new york minute

965
00:38:57,750 --> 00:38:56,160
right right i did spend i don't know

966
00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:57,760
maybe a year of my life out in

967
00:39:01,910 --> 00:39:00,880
new mexico and uh i really really liked

968
00:39:04,230 --> 00:39:01,920
it a lot

969
00:39:05,990 --> 00:39:04,240
uh it's really interesting i was talking

970
00:39:08,950 --> 00:39:06,000
to james before

971
00:39:10,630 --> 00:39:08,960
we went live james fox and he's staying

972
00:39:12,630 --> 00:39:10,640
right now in santa fe and

973
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:12,640
that whole area is just beautiful for

974
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:13,760
hiking

975
00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:16,800
bandolier and all those parks in los

976
00:39:21,829 --> 00:39:18,640
alamos up around there

977
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:21,839
really amazing and

978
00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:24,800
as as the crow flies as you see in new

979
00:39:28,470 --> 00:39:26,079
mexico however

980
00:39:30,470 --> 00:39:28,480
you are very far away from los alamos

981
00:39:33,750 --> 00:39:30,480
and aren't you

982
00:39:35,109 --> 00:39:33,760
oh yeah it's like pretty much the other

983
00:39:36,950 --> 00:39:35,119
end of the state i'm

984
00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:36,960
kind of south central new mexico right

985
00:39:43,430 --> 00:39:38,400
now uh but

986
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:43,440
yeah it's a hike definitely yeah and uh

987
00:39:47,109 --> 00:39:46,320
since you've been there um you first

988
00:39:50,230 --> 00:39:47,119
when you first

989
00:39:52,870 --> 00:39:50,240
went there you did a couple of uh

990
00:39:54,230 --> 00:39:52,880
blogs on new mexico didn't you do some

991
00:39:58,390 --> 00:39:54,240
new mexico

992
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:58,400
uh ufo cases at one time

993
00:40:02,870 --> 00:40:00,720
yeah yeah actually uh because of that i

994
00:40:06,390 --> 00:40:02,880
got a guy contacted you

995
00:40:10,550 --> 00:40:06,400
and uh i did a uh uh that show

996
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:10,560
on uh uh santa fe public radio

997
00:40:14,550 --> 00:40:13,040
yeah um so i yeah i was his premier

998
00:40:16,870 --> 00:40:14,560
guest

999
00:40:18,309 --> 00:40:16,880
um yeah basically covering the new

1000
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:18,319
mexico cases

1001
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:21,359
um so yeah when we did socorro and

1002
00:40:25,270 --> 00:40:22,160
roswell

1003
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:25,280
and actually there's a

1004
00:40:31,270 --> 00:40:28,720
famous one that's uh i'm not a fan

1005
00:40:32,470 --> 00:40:31,280
that there's a really fun crash story

1006
00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:32,480
that uh happened

1007
00:40:37,829 --> 00:40:35,440
right outside of socorro that was

1008
00:40:41,670 --> 00:40:37,839
probably not from outer space or

1009
00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:41,680
interdimensional is probably some uh

1010
00:40:45,589 --> 00:40:44,079
thing that went awry from white sands

1011
00:40:48,870 --> 00:40:45,599
missile range

1012
00:40:50,790 --> 00:40:48,880
but some kids on a ranch uh

1013
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:50,800
basically it crashed pretty much right

1014
00:40:56,790 --> 00:40:52,800
in front of them

1015
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:56,800
and they've since turned it into a

1016
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:03,750
but researching that case what's really

1017
00:41:07,510 --> 00:41:05,520
interesting is the

1018
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:07,520
one of the kids mothers was actually

1019
00:41:11,349 --> 00:41:08,880
blinded when they

1020
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,359
blew up the uh first atomic bomb at

1021
00:41:15,190 --> 00:41:13,680
trinity which is not far from uh san

1022
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:15,200
antonio

1023
00:41:19,349 --> 00:41:17,760
uh she was looking out the door and

1024
00:41:22,069 --> 00:41:19,359
there was this flash of light

1025
00:41:22,710 --> 00:41:22,079
and she ended up blinded in one eye

1026
00:41:25,910 --> 00:41:22,720
which

1027
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:25,920
kind of tells you how

1028
00:41:29,829 --> 00:41:27,599
how reckless they were when they did

1029
00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:29,839
that they did they told the citizens

1030
00:41:35,349 --> 00:41:32,240
that it was a

1031
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,359
munitions dump it blown up

1032
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:37,839
oh my god that's right i remember that

1033
00:41:42,950 --> 00:41:38,800
they did lie

1034
00:41:46,309 --> 00:41:42,960
yeah yeah yeah um yeah and no warning

1035
00:41:50,470 --> 00:41:48,390
the idea of radioactive fallout and all

1036
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:50,480
that is still kind of new

1037
00:41:56,950 --> 00:41:53,599
uh so yeah and when they've

1038
00:41:59,030 --> 00:41:56,960
when they actually tested the very first

1039
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:59,040
bomb they didn't know whether it was

1040
00:42:01,910 --> 00:42:00,079
going to

1041
00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:01,920
destroy the world they really didn't

1042
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:03,680
know there was a theory that

1043
00:42:08,470 --> 00:42:06,960
every atom would react

1044
00:42:10,390 --> 00:42:08,480
and the whole world would come to an end

1045
00:42:13,910 --> 00:42:10,400
and they actually went through with it

1046
00:42:20,710 --> 00:42:16,950
yeah exactly wow now

1047
00:42:23,990 --> 00:42:20,720
what about the um the the aztec

1048
00:42:28,829 --> 00:42:24,000
ufo crash that is such a

1049
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:28,839
controversy um the controversy that's

1050
00:42:32,790 --> 00:42:30,160
hysterical

1051
00:42:34,790 --> 00:42:32,800
yeah well you know here's bring that

1052
00:42:37,349 --> 00:42:34,800
topic up with dave marlar

1053
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:37,359
dave marlar thinks that there's really

1054
00:42:42,309 --> 00:42:39,280
something to that

1055
00:42:44,069 --> 00:42:42,319
oh no i'm sorry yeah i mean someone as

1056
00:42:47,510 --> 00:42:44,079
solid as dave marlar

1057
00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:47,520
um thinks that uh

1058
00:42:51,670 --> 00:42:50,079
the research is has been done there's

1059
00:42:55,349 --> 00:42:51,680
really something to it

1060
00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:55,359
um so um i had not paid attention

1061
00:43:01,430 --> 00:42:58,480
to that until i talked to dave marlar

1062
00:43:02,550 --> 00:43:01,440
and wow so maybe you want to when you go

1063
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:02,560
actually visit him

1064
00:43:07,829 --> 00:43:04,079
you want to bring that up and see what

1065
00:43:12,069 --> 00:43:07,839
he has to say about it maybe i don't

1066
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:12,079
might be a short friendship

1067
00:43:15,349 --> 00:43:14,400
but uh so what do you let's just hear

1068
00:43:17,829 --> 00:43:15,359
let's just hear what

1069
00:43:19,109 --> 00:43:17,839
your thoughts are on that then and and

1070
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:19,119
first of all

1071
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:20,880
how does the story go just so the

1072
00:43:23,349 --> 00:43:22,480
listener who i have a lot of new

1073
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:23,359
listeners

1074
00:43:33,910 --> 00:43:31,589
do you know much about that story

1075
00:43:35,829 --> 00:43:33,920
yeah yeah i've looked into it uh but

1076
00:43:39,270 --> 00:43:35,839
just you know from an armchair

1077
00:43:42,390 --> 00:43:39,280
so yeah um but you know there's some

1078
00:43:45,589 --> 00:43:42,400
good stuff about it uh basically uh

1079
00:43:48,630 --> 00:43:45,599
a guy in a a mysterious lecturer

1080
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:48,640
in colorado uh gave a lecture

1081
00:43:52,829 --> 00:43:51,280
on uh flying saucers as they were called

1082
00:43:56,390 --> 00:43:52,839
back then

1083
00:43:58,390 --> 00:43:56,400
um uh he was originally invited to

1084
00:44:01,670 --> 00:43:58,400
lecture in front of a uh

1085
00:44:02,550 --> 00:44:01,680
critical thinking class uh so that they

1086
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:02,560
could you know

1087
00:44:06,790 --> 00:44:04,960
go back and uh you know debate and look

1088
00:44:07,589 --> 00:44:06,800
for flaws in the argument et cetera et

1089
00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:07,599
cetera

1090
00:44:11,589 --> 00:44:09,520
word got out that there was a ufo elect

1091
00:44:14,069 --> 00:44:11,599
a flying saucer lecturer

1092
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:14,079
and they ended up having to put him in a

1093
00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:15,920
uh in a hall

1094
00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:18,160
uh so it was super well attended and it

1095
00:44:22,790 --> 00:44:19,760
also got press coverage

1096
00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:22,800
um so this guy claimed there were

1097
00:44:26,550 --> 00:44:25,280
saucer crashes that had been recovered

1098
00:44:30,069 --> 00:44:26,560
in uh

1099
00:44:32,069 --> 00:44:30,079
here and in africa uh so the news got

1100
00:44:33,349 --> 00:44:32,079
out and the uh hunt was on for uh who

1101
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:33,359
this guy was

1102
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:35,760
well they found his name was silas p

1103
00:44:40,870 --> 00:44:36,960
newton

1104
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:40,880
who is the head of an uh oil exploration

1105
00:44:45,990 --> 00:44:42,480
company

1106
00:44:49,030 --> 00:44:46,000
uh quote unquote and

1107
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:49,040
he happened to be friends with uh frank

1108
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:49,760
scully

1109
00:44:54,069 --> 00:44:52,960
who uh wrote for variety magazine knew

1110
00:44:56,870 --> 00:44:54,079
him and thought hmm

1111
00:44:58,950 --> 00:44:56,880
i got a good story on my hands so he

1112
00:45:02,950 --> 00:44:58,960
contacted newton and

1113
00:45:06,230 --> 00:45:02,960
newton uh spun this yarn about um

1114
00:45:10,069 --> 00:45:06,240
him this mysterious dr g

1115
00:45:12,790 --> 00:45:10,079
uh clueing him in uh that there was a

1116
00:45:13,829 --> 00:45:12,800
flying saucer crash in aztec new mexico

1117
00:45:17,030 --> 00:45:13,839
and that it

1118
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:17,040
had been recovered along with other uh

1119
00:45:21,190 --> 00:45:19,200
craft and now they're areas and that

1120
00:45:24,710 --> 00:45:21,200
they were investigating it

1121
00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:24,720
and had bodies and so

1122
00:45:28,309 --> 00:45:27,599
uh scully wrote it uh wrote it up in the

1123
00:45:30,829 --> 00:45:28,319
book

1124
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:30,839
uh i think it's called behind the flying

1125
00:45:35,510 --> 00:45:33,119
saucers um

1126
00:45:36,950 --> 00:45:35,520
and basically that's the centerpiece of

1127
00:45:37,270 --> 00:45:36,960
the book the rest of the book's pretty

1128
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:37,280
much

1129
00:45:44,309 --> 00:45:41,119
filler but he's got an amazing list of

1130
00:45:48,069 --> 00:45:44,319
newspaper reports which just for archive

1131
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:48,079
sakes is really valuable uh he has some

1132
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:57,430
and uh some other uh inaccurate views on

1133
00:46:00,710 --> 00:45:57,839
other

1134
00:46:01,829 --> 00:46:00,720
scientific topics but his centerpiece is

1135
00:46:05,670 --> 00:46:01,839
the uh

1136
00:46:10,710 --> 00:46:05,680
the aztec story um

1137
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:10,720
so a reporter j.p khan looked into this

1138
00:46:15,990 --> 00:46:13,920
khan wrote an article for true magazine

1139
00:46:19,670 --> 00:46:16,000
i believe

1140
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:19,680
and he

1141
00:46:26,790 --> 00:46:24,400
interviewed scully and newton

1142
00:46:28,150 --> 00:46:26,800
more and more newton's stories started

1143
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:28,160
to smell

1144
00:46:36,230 --> 00:46:31,440
um and he looked more into newton

1145
00:46:41,670 --> 00:46:39,270
had a a long history as a con man

1146
00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:41,680
and what he was doing at the time was

1147
00:46:47,190 --> 00:46:44,079
bringing

1148
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:47,200
prospective investors out to

1149
00:46:50,710 --> 00:46:49,920
oil fields and saying he had this device

1150
00:46:54,069 --> 00:46:50,720
that could find

1151
00:46:57,030 --> 00:46:54,079
oil they're called doodle bugs

1152
00:46:58,950 --> 00:46:57,040
and he claimed this that uh its

1153
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:58,960
technology was taken from a flying

1154
00:47:04,069 --> 00:47:00,560
saucer

1155
00:47:05,349 --> 00:47:04,079
uh so he actually did get people to

1156
00:47:08,790 --> 00:47:05,359
invest

1157
00:47:11,589 --> 00:47:08,800
um he took one guy for

1158
00:47:12,470 --> 00:47:11,599
over two hundred thousand dollars khan

1159
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:12,480
found the guy

1160
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:14,319
and said you want to press charges your

1161
00:47:19,030 --> 00:47:15,760
time's running out

1162
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:19,040
uh so the guy did and newton went to

1163
00:47:23,270 --> 00:47:19,920
trial

1164
00:47:25,589 --> 00:47:23,280
the mysterious dr g um

1165
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:25,599
cotton pretty much felt was this guy

1166
00:47:31,430 --> 00:47:27,920
named leo gebauer

1167
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:31,440
uh bauer was

1168
00:47:38,470 --> 00:47:34,960
a partner with um newton

1169
00:47:39,750 --> 00:47:38,480
in his doodlebug scheme so both of them

1170
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:39,760
ended up on trial

1171
00:47:46,549 --> 00:47:43,119
and uh they both lost um

1172
00:47:49,589 --> 00:47:46,559
the funny part is that uh

1173
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:49,599
they were ordered to um

1174
00:47:54,309 --> 00:47:52,400
they were ordered to pay restitution and

1175
00:47:56,549 --> 00:47:54,319
in order to do so

1176
00:47:59,670 --> 00:47:56,559
newton immediately went and sold a bunch

1177
00:48:04,150 --> 00:47:59,680
of worthless uranium stock

1178
00:48:08,549 --> 00:48:04,160
but somehow newton got off off scot-free

1179
00:48:11,750 --> 00:48:08,559
so so that's uh basically the source

1180
00:48:13,829 --> 00:48:11,760
so if that's uh you know a credible

1181
00:48:16,950 --> 00:48:13,839
source

1182
00:48:20,069 --> 00:48:16,960
you know you tell me well i i brought

1183
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:20,079
i did have the ramses on i don't know

1184
00:48:25,030 --> 00:48:23,200
maybe a year and a half ago or something

1185
00:48:28,069 --> 00:48:25,040
like that i can't remember

1186
00:48:31,750 --> 00:48:28,079
and they've done a deep dive into this

1187
00:48:35,430 --> 00:48:31,760
researching and they they actually think

1188
00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:35,440
that despite all the uh you know the the

1189
00:48:40,470 --> 00:48:37,119
con involved there

1190
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:40,480
um not uh making a pun of the guy's last

1191
00:48:44,309 --> 00:48:41,119
name

1192
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:44,319
but um they think that um

1193
00:48:47,430 --> 00:48:46,400
there there was actually something to it

1194
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:47,440
and i don't know

1195
00:48:50,950 --> 00:48:49,760
i don't know you know i can't say one

1196
00:48:53,750 --> 00:48:50,960
way or the other

1197
00:48:55,589 --> 00:48:53,760
um i think the consensus for the most

1198
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:55,599
part is there's

1199
00:49:00,549 --> 00:48:58,720
uh you know that it is wrong but

1200
00:49:02,069 --> 00:49:00,559
there are some people that think there's

1201
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:02,079
really something to it

1202
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:04,880
and um you know maybe something worth

1203
00:49:07,349 --> 00:49:05,920
bringing up

1204
00:49:09,109 --> 00:49:07,359
if you ever get real comfortable with

1205
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:09,119
dave miller

1206
00:49:13,190 --> 00:49:12,000
yeah yeah maybe he can convince me but

1207
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:13,200
you know

1208
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:16,640
times when uh

1209
00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:18,319
you know i'm willing to believe

1210
00:49:23,670 --> 00:49:20,720
everything you know i mean

1211
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:23,680
you know coming up uh you know when the

1212
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,559
uh the internet

1213
00:49:29,190 --> 00:49:26,880
first got fast enough to where you could

1214
00:49:33,430 --> 00:49:31,589
go out and where you could watch movies

1215
00:49:34,549 --> 00:49:33,440
and documentaries and lectures and all

1216
00:49:36,390 --> 00:49:34,559
that stuff

1217
00:49:38,069 --> 00:49:36,400
and you know characters like robert

1218
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:38,079
o'dean and

1219
00:49:44,390 --> 00:49:41,760
uh you know god save me bill cooper

1220
00:49:45,829 --> 00:49:44,400
um you know i bought was buying

1221
00:49:47,349 --> 00:49:45,839
everything they were saying hook line

1222
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:47,359
and sinker

1223
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:50,400
so you know i'm i'm

1224
00:49:55,990 --> 00:49:53,760
i can go there you know and just believe

1225
00:49:59,190 --> 00:49:56,000
whatever i do have a gullible streak in

1226
00:50:00,870 --> 00:49:59,200
me so

1227
00:50:02,470 --> 00:50:00,880
sometimes it's more fun to believe you

1228
00:50:04,710 --> 00:50:02,480
know yeah

1229
00:50:05,670 --> 00:50:04,720
yeah uh who do you think you you

1230
00:50:07,910 --> 00:50:05,680
mentioned some

1231
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:07,920
people that you're doing your your book

1232
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:09,440
on uh

1233
00:50:13,349 --> 00:50:11,680
who do you think is like the most

1234
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:13,359
outrageous character

1235
00:50:18,309 --> 00:50:15,599
in the contact e movement we only we

1236
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:18,319
have about four minutes here

1237
00:50:24,790 --> 00:50:21,359
the most outrageous yeah oh

1238
00:50:28,230 --> 00:50:24,800
that's a long list um

1239
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:28,240
you know i'm i'm really not too uh up on

1240
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:31,280
uh contactees but uh or fail angelucci

1241
00:50:34,710 --> 00:50:32,559
comes to mind

1242
00:50:36,549 --> 00:50:34,720
uh i think he's the one that had the uh

1243
00:50:38,870 --> 00:50:36,559
the affair with the uh

1244
00:50:42,150 --> 00:50:38,880
uh the space maiden and his wife

1245
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:43,349
i don't think i've ever heard that

1246
00:50:48,549 --> 00:50:45,440
particular uh

1247
00:50:51,670 --> 00:50:48,559
story that's interesting um you know a

1248
00:50:55,109 --> 00:50:51,680
dance it was a lot of fun

1249
00:50:58,390 --> 00:50:55,119
you know slinging hamburgers in a

1250
00:50:58,630 --> 00:50:58,400
coffee shop at the base of mount palomar

1251
00:51:01,750 --> 00:50:58,640
and

1252
00:51:03,349 --> 00:51:01,760
uh you know being called the professor

1253
00:51:06,549 --> 00:51:03,359
by his followers it's just

1254
00:51:07,349 --> 00:51:06,559
pretty wonderful yeah and they came in

1255
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:07,359
droves

1256
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:10,960
it was it's like a it was like a cult

1257
00:51:14,390 --> 00:51:12,640
yeah yeah well i mean you know it's

1258
00:51:18,069 --> 00:51:14,400
funny that uh

1259
00:51:19,829 --> 00:51:18,079
you know uh religion uh

1260
00:51:22,790 --> 00:51:19,839
you know the story of a guy coming out

1261
00:51:25,190 --> 00:51:22,800
of the desert saying you know

1262
00:51:26,549 --> 00:51:25,200
i've seen god and uh you know here's

1263
00:51:29,589 --> 00:51:26,559
what god said to me

1264
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:29,599
uh i'm not the first one to say that you

1265
00:51:33,589 --> 00:51:30,480
know that's

1266
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:33,599
real similar to what adamski did

1267
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:37,440
you know he uh orthon in the desert and

1268
00:51:40,069 --> 00:51:39,119
then came out and said i've met the

1269
00:51:43,349 --> 00:51:40,079
space people

1270
00:51:44,150 --> 00:51:43,359
and stopped using bombs and be nice to

1271
00:51:47,430 --> 00:51:44,160
each other

1272
00:51:48,870 --> 00:51:47,440
so yeah which is a good message either

1273
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:48,880
way

1274
00:51:53,030 --> 00:51:50,960
yeah you know when you if you're going

1275
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:53,040
to get it across why not

1276
00:52:00,390 --> 00:51:57,280
yeah and uh

1277
00:52:02,870 --> 00:52:00,400
yeah i remember uh

1278
00:52:04,790 --> 00:52:02,880
i spoke with someone that met i'm trying

1279
00:52:07,589 --> 00:52:04,800
to remember if it was uh george

1280
00:52:08,470 --> 00:52:07,599
van tassel or ademski was one of the

1281
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:08,480
other

1282
00:52:12,230 --> 00:52:11,599
and he basically took him aside and he

1283
00:52:15,270 --> 00:52:12,240
said

1284
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:15,280
uh hey kid you know move on

1285
00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:18,640
uh this is all just bs it's just bs and

1286
00:52:24,790 --> 00:52:21,040
don't waste your life in it

1287
00:52:27,990 --> 00:52:24,800
it was one of the two yeah

1288
00:52:28,630 --> 00:52:28,000
yeah i i might have been adamski i could

1289
00:52:32,069 --> 00:52:28,640
see that

1290
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:32,079
but uh van tassel was pretty uh

1291
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:34,960
van tassel really seems to have believed

1292
00:52:37,349 --> 00:52:35,839
um

1293
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:37,359
yeah because i think he was dealing with

1294
00:52:40,710 --> 00:52:39,440
telepathic communication so you know he

1295
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:40,720
could have been

1296
00:52:44,230 --> 00:52:42,400
believing that he was really hearing

1297
00:52:46,710 --> 00:52:44,240
voices and uh

1298
00:52:48,230 --> 00:52:46,720
yeah uh you know on some level i mean he

1299
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:48,240
he believed enough to

1300
00:52:53,990 --> 00:52:51,359
build the integrity tron uh which

1301
00:52:55,910 --> 00:52:54,000
uh i think has been restored in the

1302
00:52:58,950 --> 00:52:55,920
still stands

1303
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:58,960
um wow so yeah

1304
00:53:02,230 --> 00:53:00,960
hey um we we just have a minute left

1305
00:53:03,670 --> 00:53:02,240
here but someone wanted to know what you

1306
00:53:07,589 --> 00:53:03,680
thought of the tic tac

1307
00:53:11,670 --> 00:53:07,599
videos have you looked into those

1308
00:53:15,670 --> 00:53:11,680
oh yeah yeah actually i looked at a uh

1309
00:53:17,990 --> 00:53:15,680
is it a william powell um

1310
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:18,000
the guy first really did uh looked into

1311
00:53:24,470 --> 00:53:20,000
the uh nimitz case

1312
00:53:28,150 --> 00:53:24,480
uh oh you mean robert palmer

1313
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:28,160
robert uh the fir the one that first

1314
00:53:32,790 --> 00:53:29,599
looked into it

1315
00:53:33,670 --> 00:53:32,800
robert powell yes robert powell yeah not

1316
00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:33,680
william

1317
00:53:37,510 --> 00:53:36,160
yeah so i you know i looked at a lot of

1318
00:53:40,829 --> 00:53:37,520
stuff he said

1319
00:53:43,990 --> 00:53:40,839
uh and i looked into um

1320
00:53:46,150 --> 00:53:44,000
um uh well

1321
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:46,160
the first crazy thing about it is is

1322
00:53:51,589 --> 00:53:48,240
that it showed up

1323
00:53:52,230 --> 00:53:51,599
on somebody found it on a uh graphic

1324
00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:52,240
arts

1325
00:53:59,990 --> 00:53:56,480
uh graphic uh computer design

1326
00:54:02,309 --> 00:54:00,000
um yeah right in germany in germany

1327
00:54:03,990 --> 00:54:02,319
hey you know what i just i just got the

1328
00:54:07,109 --> 00:54:04,000
the cut we got to cut the show

1329
00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:07,119
so uh thanks so much all right real

1330
00:54:10,230 --> 00:54:08,480
pleasure talking to you martin

1331
00:54:11,990 --> 00:54:10,240
all right you take care thanks and you

1332
00:54:13,670 --> 00:54:12,000
take care sorry about the outage

1333
00:54:15,349 --> 00:54:13,680
all right everyone so we'll be back next

1334
00:54:27,260 --> 00:54:15,359
week with mike rogers and remember to

1335
00:54:27,270 --> 00:54:36,829
[Music]